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	<title>Comments on: Serpent in the Garden of Eden</title>
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		<title>By: Edmond Manning &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Vulnerablatic Equation</title>
		<link>http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/comment-page-1/#comment-9794</link>
		<dc:creator>Edmond Manning &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Vulnerablatic Equation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/#comment-9794</guid>
		<description>[...] My recent experience in the Advanced Novel Workshop has really churned my butter (I&#8217;m trying out a new colloquialism) in terms of &#8216;what can I learn from this?&#8217; And there&#8217;s an uglier question here that I must ask myself: how did I CONTRIBUTE to this situation? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] My recent experience in the Advanced Novel Workshop has really churned my butter (I&#8217;m trying out a new colloquialism) in terms of &#8216;what can I learn from this?&#8217; And there&#8217;s an uglier question here that I must ask myself: how did I CONTRIBUTE to this situation? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: lisa</title>
		<link>http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/comment-page-1/#comment-1236</link>
		<dc:creator>lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/#comment-1236</guid>
		<description>Just checking in after months of being swamped in new mamahood-and this post almost brings me to tears. I have always wanted to go to the Iowa Writing Festival, and I am stunned that it was so unsafe for you. 
And yeah, it&#039;s true about the Majority not getting what it is to be different. I was just blindsided by a group of friends telling me that my experience with my &quot;deformities&quot; is similar to having freckles. Different from your experience, but similar in that they really can&#039;t get it.
I know you have moved far past this already, but I wanted to say I am thinking of you.  ~lmc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just checking in after months of being swamped in new mamahood-and this post almost brings me to tears. I have always wanted to go to the Iowa Writing Festival, and I am stunned that it was so unsafe for you.<br />
And yeah, it&#8217;s true about the Majority not getting what it is to be different. I was just blindsided by a group of friends telling me that my experience with my &#8220;deformities&#8221; is similar to having freckles. Different from your experience, but similar in that they really can&#8217;t get it.<br />
I know you have moved far past this already, but I wanted to say I am thinking of you.  ~lmc</p>
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		<title>By: Ted Invictus</title>
		<link>http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/comment-page-1/#comment-1147</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Invictus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/#comment-1147</guid>
		<description>&quot;You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.&quot;  R. Buckminster Fuller

Or in your case, write the Universal novel this fan is waiting for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.&#8221;  R. Buckminster Fuller</p>
<p>Or in your case, write the Universal novel this fan is waiting for.</p>
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		<title>By: Edmond</title>
		<link>http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/comment-page-1/#comment-1142</link>
		<dc:creator>Edmond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/#comment-1142</guid>
		<description>Oh yeah!

What&#039;s your website? I&#039;d like to check out your blog if you&#039;re willing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yeah!</p>
<p>What&#8217;s your website? I&#8217;d like to check out your blog if you&#8217;re willing.</p>
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		<title>By: Edmond</title>
		<link>http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/comment-page-1/#comment-1141</link>
		<dc:creator>Edmond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/#comment-1141</guid>
		<description>Hi Jayne,

Sounds like perhaps you&#039;ve attended a writers&#039; workshop, eh? I have gotten a number of supportive phone calls and emails from my diverse group of friends saying, &#039;That sucks,&#039; each in their own eloquent way.

And a few writer friends have emailed to say, &#039;Yup. That&#039;s not all that unusual.&#039; I have gone to writer workshops before, but they were smaller, local. I never traveled out of state for writing and I had these stupid expectations. LOL.

And I have to balance this out with the fact that I DID get some good stuff and good comments on the written evaluations - learned a few things about my writing. So this is really a mixed blessing. The next time I write about reflections on this experience it might be under the web heading &#039;Gratitude.&#039; I&#039;m already moving in that direction.

Thanks for carrying the flag for (what I imagine must be) years, Jayne. I can sort of hear a deep sigh coming from you as you wind up the ol&#039; familiar speech:  &#039;Listen...introducing a SECOND bikini color  doesn&#039;t count as character development.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jayne,</p>
<p>Sounds like perhaps you&#8217;ve attended a writers&#8217; workshop, eh? I have gotten a number of supportive phone calls and emails from my diverse group of friends saying, &#8216;That sucks,&#8217; each in their own eloquent way.</p>
<p>And a few writer friends have emailed to say, &#8216;Yup. That&#8217;s not all that unusual.&#8217; I have gone to writer workshops before, but they were smaller, local. I never traveled out of state for writing and I had these stupid expectations. LOL.</p>
<p>And I have to balance this out with the fact that I DID get some good stuff and good comments on the written evaluations &#8211; learned a few things about my writing. So this is really a mixed blessing. The next time I write about reflections on this experience it might be under the web heading &#8216;Gratitude.&#8217; I&#8217;m already moving in that direction.</p>
<p>Thanks for carrying the flag for (what I imagine must be) years, Jayne. I can sort of hear a deep sigh coming from you as you wind up the ol&#8217; familiar speech:  &#8216;Listen&#8230;introducing a SECOND bikini color  doesn&#8217;t count as character development.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Jaye</title>
		<link>http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/comment-page-1/#comment-1140</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/#comment-1140</guid>
		<description>Ahhh, my sympathies. This could be my rant, very nearly. Except mine is about stories where the female characters exist only to bed the male protagonist. Quite often, the woman is a centerfold or stripper, because this apparently relieves the writer of supplying any actual *motivation* for her wanting to bed his repugnant hero. 

Inevitably, the writers are astonished that I find this shallow and offensive. 

I ranted in my blog recently, &quot;If I have to read one more story by an aspiring male writer in which the only female characters are thinly disguised blow-up dolls, I&#039;m going to chop down a big tree and start crafting me some clue-by-fours.&quot;

So yeah, I understand your frustration. I hope you&#039;ll be able to find a critique group that&#039;s a better fit for you. Speculative fiction writers are often more open-minded critiquers, in my experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahhh, my sympathies. This could be my rant, very nearly. Except mine is about stories where the female characters exist only to bed the male protagonist. Quite often, the woman is a centerfold or stripper, because this apparently relieves the writer of supplying any actual *motivation* for her wanting to bed his repugnant hero. </p>
<p>Inevitably, the writers are astonished that I find this shallow and offensive. </p>
<p>I ranted in my blog recently, &#8220;If I have to read one more story by an aspiring male writer in which the only female characters are thinly disguised blow-up dolls, I&#8217;m going to chop down a big tree and start crafting me some clue-by-fours.&#8221;</p>
<p>So yeah, I understand your frustration. I hope you&#8217;ll be able to find a critique group that&#8217;s a better fit for you. Speculative fiction writers are often more open-minded critiquers, in my experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/comment-page-1/#comment-1139</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/#comment-1139</guid>
		<description>Well here comes joy (at least of the BVS variety).  If you&#039;re ever lost for a quote, you can find entire show transcripts at www.buffyworld.com

Pretty formidible memory though.  You nailed the quote...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well here comes joy (at least of the BVS variety).  If you&#8217;re ever lost for a quote, you can find entire show transcripts at <a href="http://www.buffyworld.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.buffyworld.com</a></p>
<p>Pretty formidible memory though.  You nailed the quote&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Edmond</title>
		<link>http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/comment-page-1/#comment-1137</link>
		<dc:creator>Edmond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 00:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/#comment-1137</guid>
		<description>Tony, that&#039;s very sweet. 

The experience didn&#039;t turn me off from being a writer - not in the least. But I am rethinking ways to approach developing writing skills. Maybe sitting in a room having a manuscript read by random strangers isn&#039;t the way. The lack of relationship, the lack of trust. I mean...one dude lumps gay-themed writing to kiddie porn! Why would I want feedback from a guy who thinks gay = child pornography?

On the other hand, there were a couple manuscripts that really impressed me. One woman wrote this beautiful, heart-aching piece about having to put down a beloved horse. Her writing &#039;hurt,&#039; in that good way where your heart breaks a little bit. So I definitely can learn from other writers - I need to do that.

And people who are very DIFFERENT from me will have unique perspectives and gifts, so I can&#039;t get too stuck only having people I love and trust give me feedback. (Though having an editor I truly trust makes me very happy - I have never had an &#039;editor relationship,&#039; and I didn&#039;t know it was a good, good thing.)

I will have to work on this.

BTW...love that episode of Buffy. One of the Gaia witches replies to Willow&#039;s suggestion to do a REAL spell, &quot;Um...some stereotypes of witches are um...not very empowering.&quot; Or something to that effect. It&#039;s a great quote. I tried to find the exact words on www.imdb.com but no joy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tony, that&#8217;s very sweet. </p>
<p>The experience didn&#8217;t turn me off from being a writer &#8211; not in the least. But I am rethinking ways to approach developing writing skills. Maybe sitting in a room having a manuscript read by random strangers isn&#8217;t the way. The lack of relationship, the lack of trust. I mean&#8230;one dude lumps gay-themed writing to kiddie porn! Why would I want feedback from a guy who thinks gay = child pornography?</p>
<p>On the other hand, there were a couple manuscripts that really impressed me. One woman wrote this beautiful, heart-aching piece about having to put down a beloved horse. Her writing &#8216;hurt,&#8217; in that good way where your heart breaks a little bit. So I definitely can learn from other writers &#8211; I need to do that.</p>
<p>And people who are very DIFFERENT from me will have unique perspectives and gifts, so I can&#8217;t get too stuck only having people I love and trust give me feedback. (Though having an editor I truly trust makes me very happy &#8211; I have never had an &#8216;editor relationship,&#8217; and I didn&#8217;t know it was a good, good thing.)</p>
<p>I will have to work on this.</p>
<p>BTW&#8230;love that episode of Buffy. One of the Gaia witches replies to Willow&#8217;s suggestion to do a REAL spell, &#8220;Um&#8230;some stereotypes of witches are um&#8230;not very empowering.&#8221; Or something to that effect. It&#8217;s a great quote. I tried to find the exact words on <a href="http://www.imdb.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.imdb.com</a> but no joy.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/comment-page-1/#comment-1135</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 20:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/#comment-1135</guid>
		<description>I feel for the agendas, competitiveness, poor facilitation, lack of support and personal fears that overshadowed this literary learning experience.  

While you work to build your writing skill, sifting the grains of gold from the dross, NEVER forget what you have already accomplished with the innate power of your fiction.  I doubt very much that any of your classmates will ever be able to say the same, and had they any inkling of this power, they would be both humbled and embarassed by the pettiness of their vision

I&#039;m smilingly reminded of the Buffy episode &quot;Hush&quot; (season 4), where Willow is politely but firmly ostracised by the wicca group she was attending in hopes of developing her spell skills, while they busied themselves with &quot;empowering lemon bundt cakes and gaia newsletters&quot;.  

Keep the faith!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel for the agendas, competitiveness, poor facilitation, lack of support and personal fears that overshadowed this literary learning experience.  </p>
<p>While you work to build your writing skill, sifting the grains of gold from the dross, NEVER forget what you have already accomplished with the innate power of your fiction.  I doubt very much that any of your classmates will ever be able to say the same, and had they any inkling of this power, they would be both humbled and embarassed by the pettiness of their vision</p>
<p>I&#8217;m smilingly reminded of the Buffy episode &#8220;Hush&#8221; (season 4), where Willow is politely but firmly ostracised by the wicca group she was attending in hopes of developing her spell skills, while they busied themselves with &#8220;empowering lemon bundt cakes and gaia newsletters&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Keep the faith!</p>
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		<title>By: Edmond</title>
		<link>http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/comment-page-1/#comment-1134</link>
		<dc:creator>Edmond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 18:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.edmondmanning.com/2008/07/18/serpent-in-the-garden-of-eden/#comment-1134</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I hear the tongue-in-cheek point you&#039;re making. Leona Helmsley (shudder.) 

I&#039;ve been sitting around the house feeling shitty all day because I don&#039;t like how this worked out. I wish there was some sort of &#039;undo&#039; for peoples&#039; comments.

The DD woman referenced in the post above? She was smart. Clever observations in class. Good writer. Why&#039;d she have to talk shit? The YPD guy was also smart and goofy, likeable. Why&#039;d he have to vehemently insist that this one-dimensional character was a realistic portrayal?

It makes me sad.

Prejudice always surprises me, but moreso when the person spouting it doesn&#039;t realize what they&#039;re saying is very prejudiced and yet *insist* that it&#039;s not.

I had a guy once tell me, &quot;I don&#039;t hate ALL black people - some of them are okay. The ones who act white.&quot; He had no fucking clue that this was wildly racist; he thought he was open-minded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I hear the tongue-in-cheek point you&#8217;re making. Leona Helmsley (shudder.) </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been sitting around the house feeling shitty all day because I don&#8217;t like how this worked out. I wish there was some sort of &#8216;undo&#8217; for peoples&#8217; comments.</p>
<p>The DD woman referenced in the post above? She was smart. Clever observations in class. Good writer. Why&#8217;d she have to talk shit? The YPD guy was also smart and goofy, likeable. Why&#8217;d he have to vehemently insist that this one-dimensional character was a realistic portrayal?</p>
<p>It makes me sad.</p>
<p>Prejudice always surprises me, but moreso when the person spouting it doesn&#8217;t realize what they&#8217;re saying is very prejudiced and yet *insist* that it&#8217;s not.</p>
<p>I had a guy once tell me, &#8220;I don&#8217;t hate ALL black people &#8211; some of them are okay. The ones who act white.&#8221; He had no fucking clue that this was wildly racist; he thought he was open-minded.</p>
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